The Ask Joy question for this week: What is chivalry today?
I believe it’s very easy to take the original intent of chivalry as an “act of service” and change it into a “statement against women.”
Take my good friend “Billy the Biker” for example…
What do you think? Should women feel this way?
Are men paralyzed? Could the dismissal of chivalry be creating passive men?
Do we fear empowering one another?
Love and Respect (Now) is a division of Love and Respect. Please be considerate.
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Joe – Thanks for your sharing your experience. It is easier to do a kind or chivalrous act when you know someone and trust is there. I did say in my video that Billy knew the girl from his class. The act is not grabbing the bike in some abrupt way, but simply putting pressure on the back or seat for a few moments to ease their riding experience.
The main point though was that her response was completely disrespectful and irrational. She assumed the worst about him. She assumed he was making an offensive statement about her.
In general, we will encourage and empower one another if we approach situations by assuming the best about someone as oppose to reacting out of assuming the worst, i.e. “by doing this I am stating that I think you are less than me.”
For me personally and many women I know…it’s our nature to assume the intentions of a guy are anything but servant hood. There are many contributing factors to this that I won’t go into now, but my heart is to serve the woman that do fear mens intentions and give a new perspective to think about.
Joy,
You are amazing woman. I find your knowledge to be astounding. Thank you for your wisdom and guidance to our generation. By the way…your awesomeness has not faded in my eyes!!!!
Kiersten
right – some guys do stick their neck out and get burned. some guys stick their neck out for the wrong intentions. some guys don’t stick their neck out at all and should. some women react positively. some don’t. all obvious statements.
what if ..
Billy said, “Alright – coming up behind you and we’re going to take this hill like they do it in the tour de france.”
— Billy’s hand goes to seat, while being careful not to grab her butt —
Pissed girl: “Screw you. I don’t need your help. You’re not better than me.”
Billy: “Well, how do you know I don’t need your help and that’s why I’m holding on to your seat?”
whatever. maybe that’s a dumb example. BUT.
my point is: (and this is more to the guys)
a little communication goes a long ways.
stick your neck out there and take some initiative and don’t sweat it if you get burned, but try and communicate somehow, whether it’s verbal, or body language, or whatever, … communication in a respectful manner along with some kind act of service will most likely result in a civil interaction at the least. and one civil interaction may inspire another. and another. and maybe this is all in ya’ll’s books, but since i haven’t read them i don’t know.
and for the women, seems like finding a balance between reacting respectfully AND suspiciously is tough, but im not against that in the least. as a single guy, im not always sure what my intentions are if i do something nice, chivalrous, and gentleman-ly for the opposite sex, so in my mind, a woman is perfectly within her rights to be suspicious. guys n gals need to guard their hearts right? even out of that guarding though i think there is a way to COMMUNICATE w/ respect whether you know the person you are communicating to or not.
just what i’ve seen. most of the time, in my experience, fully capable women appreciate a guy having manners or acting servant-ly if they don’t think he’s doing it to prove he’s better than them or that they suck at life, and sometimes the only way to make sure they take a gesture the right way is to smile, or ask permission, or …
so joy. just so you know, i think im speaking more to the guys in this post, and your response earlier seemed like it was more about a girl’s reactions. my thought is that if a guy’s initial process gets tweaked, the girl might have a better reaction.
The origin of chivalry was the code of the courtly lover in regard to, oddly enough, adulterous relationships. It really was not about an honorable increase of respect toward women. However, the word chivalry, like the word gentlemen, changed over time as we shifted from Middle Ages and Renaissance to Modernity. And just as gentlemen (and women) shifted from mere birthright to attitude and behavior, so did chivalry change from the code of the courtly lover to an actual attitude of respect and a behavior of service. (The Protestant Reformation, albeit inadvertently and almost in spite of itself, Protestant England in particular being highly misogynistic, really had a lot to do with these shifts because of it’s strong emphasis on Bible literacy for everyone — even women.)
But I realize that is slightly beside the point. And the point is, this is a good, thought-povoking post that hopefully will serve as a catalyst for serious consideration of what you’re really getting at: the power we have to empower others.
As I was listening to Billy the Biker’s story, I thought–If the young woman had no context for such an act of service (ie. she didn’t know this was a common practice among pros and has no prior experience with this tradition), to have a classmate whom she obviously doesn’t know well grab the back of her bike certainly seems like a sexual advance. In which case, her response isn’t irrational at all, though certainly disrespectful — she could have communicated better by asking, even if angrily, “What are you doing!?” which could have opened up the possibility of an explanation. So I think Joe’s right. There was room for better communication from both parties.
I also really appreciate Joe’s candor about his own uncertainty about his own motivations, and the same could be said about the motives behind our (that is to say, a woman’s) responses to certain acts of service especially in certain situations.
One of the ideas underlying this video, and this website in general, is the idea of giving others the benefit of the doubt, particularly when we often communicate so differently as men and women. This is huge. It’s essential in trading our Earthly-vision for Christ’s Kingdom-vision.
This post reminds me of some of the reasons I love Texas. I can’t remember the last time I opened the door for myself when someone else was around. In many places there’s a culture of common curtesy (not on the highways though). And it’s been fun to watch this culture evolve as men and women hold doors open for each other — common curtesy that helps us see each other as people first and distinct genders second. And that practice, when consciously cultivated, helps us to not look at members of the opposite sex primordially and primarily in terms of potential romantic partners; rather that potential is properly placed under the umbrella of personhood. This is Ephesians 5:21, the baseline of that passage, and indeed much of the Christian life.
Thanks Joy.
Kiersten – Thanks so much for your encouragement!
Joe & Renea – Love the additional elements you have brought to the discussion. This is what I crave on my site so thank you! I just want to give a couple caveats…
Joe you mentioned not reading my parents books. I just want to note that this topic is not from my parents material but simply a response to questions I get from readers. While I come under the covering of my parents work, these responses are my opinion and answers to peoples questions based off of what I know and observe.
Renea – I was basing my 2 second summary of chivalry on what I understood it to be post dark ages and in the time of the Renaissance. So was I correct then? You are far more of the expert in this area so I loved your additional information.
What you both said about communication and clarity is obviously 100% key to how we understand each other as men and women. I had already cut my notes and disclaimers in half for this video so I tried to stay as best as I could to the question at hand.
Where I may have been over assuming in my analogy to the bike story was that I live in Portland Oregon (very different from the south). The bike technique I explained probably could be viewed by anyone hearing it described as something that woman could have mistaken for being sexually inappropriate (i.e. touching her butt). As a rider, all you notice is that your biking gets easier. The hand never touches the butt. I am 100% sure the woman on the bike reacted because she felt a statement was being made about her competency.
And as you both so greatly pointed out, if he would have just said something, I am sure a lot could have been cleared up. I agree, but communication was not the focus of my answer.
What I wanted to point out was how many men try to do acts of service as a natural way to show respect to one another.
Then, we have many women who feel disrespected today, as well as say that many men are passive.
I wanted to see if we could draw any connections.
I know that’s a generalization and that not ALL men and women fall into these categories of feelings and actions…but since I only have about 3-5 minutes to make a video I have to be “general.”
So this was my take on how we (as renea said) have the “power to empower others.”
Thanks again for engaging on this–I love it!
Re: Definition/history of chivalry: Yep… more or less… It’s a complicated etymology. 🙂 It’s a word with so much baggage, and though normally I prefer redeeming words rather than abandoning them, because of chivalry’s seedy origins, I don’t mind that it’s gone out of fashion.
Re: Caveat: Given your certainty about this young woman’s response, I’d have to agree with you.
Thanks again, Joy!
Great post and discussion!
Joe Echo-Hawk thinks...
Really, in my experience atleast, if I’m communicating and not assuming, women feel respected and I can take the initiative to be “chivalrous.” In the case of Billy the Biker, he made an assumption, and for someone like me that is completely clueless about the gesture he made, that’s a pretty bold or at least bubble bursting gesture that I would expect most women to respond to in a like manner. Grabbing someone’s bike is totally different then waiting an extra second to hold open a door. Men should take initiative, but if you don’t know that person, probably best to communicate things a bit right? If the woman says no, go spend your chivalrous deed on someone else. Interesting topic though..
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